Jason Knight 0:00 Hello and welcome to the show and an episode where we ask Do you have product message fit? Speaking of products and messages, this episode is sponsored by product people. Now, if you're a company founder or product leader who needs to get a product management team up and running quickly or cover parental leave, check out product people. They've got a thriving community and 40 in house product managers, product ops pros and put up leaders, they onboard fast aligned teams and deliver outcomes. You can check out one night in product.com/product people to book a free intro chat and quote code oak IP to get a 5% discount. That's one night in product.com/product people, you can check the show notes for more details. Now, despite what some people might say you do need to put some thought into how your product gets out to market what you say about it, how you position it and much more. So if you want to find out more about how you might put a strategy behind this stuff and what might go wrong if you don't stick with us on one that's important. Jason Knight 1:01 So my guest tonight is Diane Weaver do Diane's a location independent former translator and current wordsmith and marketing guru who says she hates it when people are poured when the plane lands? Diane started out working with a Tyrannosaurus Rex at the Natural History Museum. But she's now trying to make bad brand messaging extinct and mounting companies failed messaging strategies as displayed pieces and cabinets were cautionary signs for future generations of sass marketers. She's doing this with her own firm line words and says it's time for you to stop sounding like everyone else. Hi, Diane. How are you tonight? Diane Wiredu 1:31 Hi, Jason. Thanks for having me. And thanks for the best intro I think I've ever received. Jason Knight 1:36 That was brilliant. And I was just thinking that she that if you if you hate people applauding when the plane lands, you should absolutely fly with Tyrannosaurus rex is because they are unable to applaud. Diane Wiredu 1:48 Oh, God, the dad jokes are coming in. Jason Knight 1:51 I might cut that out. So the most important question first you call yourself location independent? And I know you don't like the term digital nomad. So shouldn't have said that, I guess. But where are you currently at right now? And do people applaud when you landed? Diane Wiredu 2:06 So yes, I'm I'm kind of a bit all over the place. Actually, we're as we're recording this. I'm currently in Mexico City. I've been here for a couple of months. But I'm usually based out of Barcelona. But I've also kind of lived in Portugal lived in Italy, the UK. So yeah, kind of dusted around a little bit, making the most of remote work and really just needing a strong Wi Fi connection to be able to do what I do. Jason Knight 2:31 There you go. But do you work then with people in those countries? Or do you do a lot of remote work internationally and kind of just where you are is where you are. But you're operating with the same people you're not taking you're sort of set it up store wherever it is that the people are that you want to work with? Diane Wiredu 2:47 Yeah, no, no, everything that I do is online. Right? So I've worked with clients who are based in the US from east to the west coast in order for us to Europe and what to clients based in, you know, London to Amsterdam to Berlin. So it doesn't really matter. Most of the work that we do, we'll be using the beauty of zoom and Google meet. And everything's done digitally. Yes, I can. I can be wherever. Jason Knight 3:12 Oh, well, you talk about the work. But we haven't really said what you do yet, aside from the snappy intro. So you're the founder line word. So what problem does line word solve for me or for people like me? Diane Wiredu 3:23 Yeah, so I am the founder of line words. And I'm a brand messaging strategist. So line words basically helps scaling b2b SaaS and digital service companies, simplify their messaging, helps them really attract more perfect fit customers and essentially get better results from their from their marketing. So yeah, I work mostly with farmers, small marketing teams, helping them really get clear on their messaging, their positioning their differentiation, how to talk about what they do and how they sound. And then all of that work really kind of sets the foundation for strong and effective copy. So that you can use that to kind of keep growing the business and keep growing knitting. Jason Knight 4:03 Sounds good. But you kind of touched on it there you mainly focused in on sort of startups that are scrappy startups that don't really know what they're doing yet or you also, or do you also have like a lumbering corporate play where you can go in there and help them know what they're doing, which they should know what they're doing, but they don't yet? Diane Wiredu 4:21 Yeah, that's a it's a good question. I would say, I work mostly with kind of growth stage startups, right. So when you're very early on in that scrappy stage that you're talking about, you don't usually have a need for me or you haven't realised that you have any for me, you probably do, I could definitely come in and help you. But you're not ready for that. So the growth stage really, when you're kind of you've got, let's say you've already got at least a small small marketing team. I mean, I've also worked with enterprise companies as well. So it's not necessarily related to, you know, your annual recurring revenue or your team size, it's really often are you going through a shift Do you have to kind of outgrown your messaging? And so, you know, at any point, when there's kind of a change happening, I can come in and really help companies kind of get a grip on their messaging and refresh that? Jason Knight 5:12 Absolutely. But I was looking on Fiverr earlier and saw people offering to do like strategy, work brand strategy, work product strategy work for quite small amounts of money, guaranteed 10, day delivery, up to two revisions, and then you're done. Is that sort of thing that you're up to? Or are you more of an ongoing relationship type of company and kind of get in there? And then keep with them? Diane Wiredu 5:33 Yeah, I mean, that's the first I've ever heard of strategies coming in and telling you that they can kind of help you with a couple of days, and you know, Bish, bash Bosh. So, yeah, good. Good luck with those. No, so, you know, you asked me about whether I kind of come in and work kind of one off, or whether it's really ongoing work. The thing with messaging is, it's really hard to see that eyeball when you're stuck inside the jar, right. So for internal teams, product teams, founders, marketing managers, they have this curse of being really too close to their product. It's almost like you know, everything that you just can't see the realities, the beauty of my work is that I come in, and I bring an external perspective. So I come in to a company and I can help them, you know, simplifying things that have become complex, you know, really complex product messaging problems, that shouldn't be hard, but are, and really help companies kind of get out of their head. So, because of that, that's something that only happens once pay, you can only bring a new fresh external perspective once, because then by the end of the project, I'm pretty much like the rest of the people who are in the company, and I know everything. So the way that I do work is that I do work on a one off basis, I work on project basis with companies they come in, we have an engagement that varies, it can be six weeks, eight weeks, whatever it is, we come in, we do the job, we deliver it, and then I kind of get out, then I do continue to support those companies in certain ways. But it's not the same messaging strategy project. That's really just kind of the one Jason Knight 7:11 of only as good as your first gig, right? Diane Wiredu 7:16 Yeah, it works for me, and it works for my clients, right? Because I think, yeah, you know, there are so many teams that companies are working with, okay, they've got the SEO agency, they've got their PR agency, they've got their marketing agency, they're forcing them into these tougher changes. And I'm not because we don't need, we don't need that we need to come in to fix the problem. We fix it. And you know, we might need to fix to get it again in six months or in 12 months. But we do it, we do it once. Jason Knight 7:40 Come back for the next pivot. Exactly. But you were working as a translator before this, as well as a bunch of business roles in translation firms as well. So you've obviously got a talent with and an interest in the power of words. But what was it that got you into starting your own consultancy doing this sort of thing in the first place? Diane Wiredu 7:58 Yeah, you're right, my, I have a severe, severe, I guess, passion for words for communication. You know, I really, truly do believe in the power of words. And that's why, you know, I studied languages, I studied translation, and I worked in translation and communication roles for such a long period of time. And it's really that work, and all of those studies that inform the work that I do currently, but I shifted from translation to copywriting. And for the same conversion, copywriting pretty much just after the pandemic, I was a classic pandemic pivot case. Like many, many other people out there, and when I was working, you know, closely with founders, with CMOs and marketing teams, I realised that all of that upfront work, all of those questions that any great copywriter worth their salt will ask you about what makes you different. Talk to me about your your customers, your customer journey, why do you do what you do all of that, that that real? Yeah, the foundational stuff that you need to know, to write copy clients really struggled with. And that was the bit that I actually enjoyed the most. And that kind of branched off into its own service, which obviously became messaging strategy. Because really, what I started to see was, companies didn't have that foundational work they were coming and asking for help with copy, you know, we want to rewrite our homepage, or we want you to help refresh our copy. And what I realised was no one you actually need is messaging. You need a messaging strategy first, so that we can get them go and then build out that copy. Jason Knight 9:31 Makes sense? But let's talk about messaging, then. No surprise, surprise. So you say that the success of your product hinges on your messaging? And obviously you just touched on that as well. But just for the record, how are you specifically defining messaging and what is part of messaging and part of that strategy? Diane Wiredu 9:49 So I think the simplest way to define messaging is that messaging is what you say about your product, your service, your solution, whatever. And then copywriting is really how you say that. Because I do think there's quite a lot of confusion between messaging and copywriting. As soon as becoming more trendy, a bit more sexy as a topic, you know, depending on which which circles you, you hang out in, particularly in the b2b SaaS world, you know, there's this awakening of what messaging is. Yeah. But messaging, I'd say is, is the foundation, right. So it's the foundation for to get that strong, effective copywriting. And messaging is really based on and informed by your unique positioning in the market, your mission and values and vision as a company, as well as your, who your ideal customers are. So all of those things are really going to inform how you kind of create that messaging. And messaging is really all about kind of identifying the most essential things about your product, and why that matters to your audience. Once you have that, once you have your core messaging, that can be told in different ways, depending on the channel, depending on the audience, and depending on whatever it is. And that's where copywriting really brings your messaging to life. Jason Knight 11:03 Absolutely, because when I'm thinking about messaging, obviously, there's what you just said, which I completely agree with. And then I'm starting to think about almost like, things like style guides and like the different, almost like the personality that you want your brand to have, and the voice and then the types of things that you would and wouldn't say about it. Is it that prescriptive, or is it more high level than that? Diane Wiredu 11:23 Yeah, so what you've just touched on there is really what I would call brand voice, so you know, your brand voice or just voice. And for me, I think that makes up one piece of the whole messaging strategy. It's something that depending on the kind of project that I work on, depending on my client, depending on how much help they need with that, sometimes I work with clients who have a very clear and strong voice that they've worked on with someone else with an expert. So really, we're fine there. And other clients who actually have no idea as part of the work that we do actually help them build out a brand voice that's going to support them as a company, and it's going to support their product and actually help them connect with their customers better. I think I'm quite lucky in that sense that I kind of enjoy and cover all those areas from kind of copy to the messaging to brand voice. But it isn't one or the other. Right brand voice is one small piece messaging itself, we're talking about, what is it that you offer? What makes you different? How can we express that in some key themes, key pillars, so that you can actually connect with your customers. And then brand voice is another element of how we can say that, right? So certain certain brands and certain companies, perhaps you need to take a bit more of a formal tone, or some companies really want to make a real stance with their with their tone of voice. And they want to alienate certain customers. And that's something that you can focus on. But it's different pieces of the same puzzle. Yeah, that Jason Knight 12:47 makes sense. But then when you talk about positioning, obviously, when it comes to positioning, I'm gonna think of people are April Dunford, and all the work that she's done with the obviously awesome and that side of things and trying to make you get that position in the first place. Like, is that something that you do yourself? Or do you need someone to come and do that positioning work first, and then bring you their kind of candidate positioning that you can work with them on? Like, how far up that funnel for one of a bit? Where do you get? Diane Wiredu 13:12 Yeah, I think I work in a little bit of a grey area, my non negotiables. There's so many grey areas in marketing, right, I might as well just say, have brought a recording that says it depends to this podcast, Jason Knight 13:27 that would fit with the product management podcast as well. So that's all cool. Diane Wiredu 13:30 Exactly. Yeah, that's a great question. So this is this answer is obviously particularly about the way that I work. And I know that other messaging strategies, other positioning consultants and different agencies will work in a different way. My non negotiables are that you have a clear product market fit, before we come and work together, I'm not going to come in and help you, you know, define what it is that you do and who for you need to have a clear grasp on who your customers are. And you need to have a clear grasp on where you sit in the market. If you can't answer those basic questions in the beginning, we're gonna have a really tough time, and it's gonna be a completely different project. Now, Jason Knight 14:04 there's just not 50% of startups. Diane Wiredu 14:07 Again, so hang on, hang on. Now, that's not to say that we can't refine it. And as part of the any messaging strategy work, you're going to be going out and interviewing customers getting feedback, looking at your competitors doing competitive market research. I mean, all of that might shift what you initially thought, but I need, I need to work with people who have at least a grasp of what they what they think it is, and then we can refine that. If that makes sense. Jason Knight 14:36 Yeah, well, maybe we're knocking out 30% of startups, and that's fine. Diane Wiredu 14:39 And that's fine. I can't help everyone. Jason Knight 14:43 But some people on the socials might and basically do sit there and say, you just need to build it and they're going to come and marketing and sales and all this commercial stuff is just nonsense. And that product should just do all the work and all that jazz now. Are you seriously saying To those people that we can't just make cool products that sell themselves. Diane Wiredu 15:04 I wish we could just make cool products that sell themselves. I think that's, that's the old playbook. Right? Maybe were one where we weren't competing against hundreds of 1000s of other similar solutions. To be honest, actually, I don't even think there ever was a time that you could just build something cool. And it would sell itself, you know, marketing, we've always needed marketing, build it, and they'll come no longer works. Yeah, from my perspective, and I think, thankfully, many more companies, particularly the b2b space are starting to realise that you can have the coolest product on Earth, the most useful thing for your ideal clients, and they still won't buy it unless you show them or prove to them that it matters to them. And, you know, one of the most obvious and clearest ways to do that is through your messaging. So messaging is really, really powerful for helping you get through and connect with the right people. And just really kind of create the foundation for so many other things, create that brand awareness, create community of following it all comes down to how you articulate the value of your product. So yeah, sorry, build it, and they'll come doesn't like. Jason Knight 16:15 So he tweets a tech bros. But unfortunately, you do still need to be able to actually market this stuff to get it out there. But surely there are products out there with rubbish messaging, that still do. Okay. Have you seen any examples of that? And if you have, what's the secret? Diane Wiredu 16:32 I mean, definitely. There are definitely products with very mediocre to bad messaging that still do. Okay, I see it every day. But not every company wants to do. Okay, I think no company wants to do, okay, they want to be the biggest player, they want to be the best. You know, the thing is that a great product can get you to a certain level, but it can only get you so far. So I also don't want to bash completely bash average messaging. All right, hang on scrap that. No, I mean, what I want to say is, I think in the beginning stages of any product lifecycle of any launch, messaging is always going to start off, okay, mediocre, there's probably going to be a lot of testing, probably founders working on messaging, DIY, and copy pasting, all that kind of stuff. And there's nothing wrong with that. So I don't want to bash anyone who is starting, I know, you probably have a wide range of listeners from like, enterprise all the way down to, you know, early stage founders probably love them all. Exactly. So if you're at the beginning phase, fine, right. But as you grow with that old way, doesn't really serve you, right, so you outgrow your messaging. And that's really where you kind of need to step it up. But yeah, unfortunately, the biggest and best companies out there or still, do you make mistakes with their messaging. And you know, there are a lot of telltale signs about kind of bad messaging as well. Jason Knight 17:51 I was just thinking, as you were saying that, like, obviously, everyone's trying to do everything on the cheap these days, as much as possible, be scrappy as they can. And there's a bunch of great AI tools out there these days that can apparently write copy for you. So do you think that there's gonna come a time where people can just put some kind of vague set of words into some kind of AI tool, and it's gonna come out of a wonderfully crafted everything? Or do you think you're always gonna need people like you to actually do a good job of it? Diane Wiredu 18:17 You know, the thing is, a is a great tool, I think for really getting you started, it's a great tool for brainstorming, it can produce some pretty decent, maybe kind of long form content. When it comes to messaging, like we just spoke about what messaging is, the basis of messaging is informed by who you are, as a company, your mission, your vision, all of that kind of stuff, unless you can input all of that into AI, which I don't think you can, it won't take that on board. It also takes into consideration your customers, you know, what they think what they feel about your product, all of that feedback, again, can't be taken on by AI. So, you know, I'm not worried about that. Because, you know, messaging is really strategic work. And strategic work requires a lot of a lot of thinking, looking at a lot of different points of data, pulling those together, looking for patterns, and then looking at what you can do differently to make sure that you stand out from everyone else. Oh, absolutely. Jason Knight 19:15 Well, we're safe from Skynet for now. But as far as you're concerned, then, what are some of the core principles, concepts or measures of a successful messaging strategy? Diane Wiredu 19:29 Yes, I think successful messaging looks different for each company. But there are a few things that should always have in common. One thing is clarity. And you probably hear this all the time. And it almost sounds like a cop out. But I'm saying clarity, but it is so it's so important. And there are so many big companies out there who do not pass the clarity test and you'll be really surprised. And again, it's that syndrome of we're too close to it. We know everything about our product and we think everyone else As messaging needs to be super clear, when I land on any asset, I'm talking about a website, because that's often the place that people go to first. But if I interact with your company at any point, I should know and have no doubt who you are, what you do, and why I should care about it as well. So I don't just mean clarity of, you know, what your product offers, but then taking it to that next level of like, who is this for? And why should I care? So that's my absolute, you know, number one, if every single company out there did just a clarity test, like an audit, for clarity, the world would be a better place. think the second thing is really, that your messaging should be easy to understand, easy to understand, and easy to remember, really, you know, one of the things that companies often get wrong is really trying to say too much, trying to say too much at the same time bombarding people with some of the messages. And you know, I always say that confused prospects don't buy. So you know, creating messaging that's easy to understand, easy to remember is about highlighting the most important things that you deliver. Because no one can hold 10 messages in their brain at any one time, I can't remember, you know, the four things that I wanted to buy in the supermarket, you know, by the time I walk through the front door, but you want me to remember the seven top features of your product within two seconds, it's not going to work. So really simplifying things. And then I think the other core concept, I guess, of successful messaging is making sure that it's really relevant. And that's where, you know, our best friend's research and customer research comes into play. Because strong messaging really needs to be created around like the needs of your audience, based on customer research, using AI, one of the things that I do as a non negotiable part of my process is voice of customer. And you know, the output is always informed by what your current customers have have said. So yeah, so I think really clear and easy to understand. And relevant. Jason Knight 21:54 Yeah, I'm just thinking of some of those. Maybe people that would have said earlier that before we told them otherwise, that they could just build it and they become this kind of tech first. All you need is tech, all you need is product don't need any marketing or anything like that, that some of these people tend to get caught in a trap of putting too much of their actual technical solution into the messaging as well, like, oh, great, yeah, we've got the no web three or blockchain. I mean, that's an easy example to kick in the face, I guess. But like, all these people that just sort of sit there and lead with how they do it, rather than what they do, which I think to me feels like a really awkward position to be in. Because in many ways, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that your customers aside for maybe when fleet customers don't really care, how it's been done, they care what's been done. Right. Diane Wiredu 22:38 Exactly. And I mean, you know, you touched on this about, you know, these people who, you know, build a product and hope that, you know, it's just a core product that solves a problem when people come. You know, that's an incredibly important that's like phase one, it's almost like, I'm assuming that you have an awesome product. Because there are many things that messaging can do. It's interesting, I read a LinkedIn post about this today, that you know, messaging can help you do X, Y, Zed, it can help you stand out from the competition, it can help you assert your positioning, it can help you shorten lengthy sales cycles, there's so many things that strong messaging can help you do. But it can't save you from a crappy product, right? So you do have to have an awesome product to begin with. But I really don't want it to sound like I have just been trashing the idea of having an awesome product that is absolutely the basis of everything else. But when we've got that, then what we need to do is make sure that everyone knows about how awesome your product is. And we can't do that just by talking about your product features. We need to do that in a way that is much more holistic. And that speaks to people in the way that they actually engage with companies. Jason Knight 23:43 Absolutely. But I've seen you talk about your law framework. Now. Obviously, line words, line reference, Loring has definitely on brand for you mentioned it to kids before this call, and they say love the concept. So you've got some some core points there, and maybe some merchandising ideas as well. But if we talk them briefly about the raw framework, and how this helps you to get some of this stuff, right. So there's four elements, I believe, yes, the first being research. So talk to me a little bit about the research that you do then to help people get this right. Diane Wiredu 24:17 Yeah, definitely. So yeah, we're always my four step process, four step framework that I follow. Any messaging engagement to really kind of help me kind of uncover those like messages that will actually resonate. So as you said, it's ROA, our research opportunity, assembly and review. Now, the first thing you said is research and research is probably like 7070 plus percent of like the whole project. So this is really the meaty phase, and research and discovery. So that includes strategy sessions, from the beginning to really unpack, you know, what challenges we're facing, what goals we're going after. There's a lot of studying the cost. So my journey I really need to come in and now understand your product inside out and the time your current marketing strategy, what's going right, what's going wrong, we'll do a lot of evaluating just the entire business ecosystem pretty much and evaluating the competitive landscape as well, to see where you sit in the market and kind of what you're up against, and also reviewing a lot of your existing materials, existing assets, and pretty much just getting that that full scope of what are we doing? And where are we? And then the biggest piece or the the final step, that's really important to kind of close off that research phase is customer research. So my goal there is really getting into the minds of your customers, and performing that research, specifically for the purpose of messaging, right. And I really, I want to point this out, because on this particular podcast, we're product after product managers, we perform customer research for many different purposes. And I'm not talking about the kind of customer researches like, What's your favourite feature? I am talking about really getting deep into what was it that kind of stood out? Why, why did you pick us looking at some of those results that you've seen, and really getting into the minds of your thought process, the buying process behind behind your customer. So that's, that's the first part, then we move into Oh, which is opportunity. So looking for opportunities, this is really the kind of strategy stage so this is where all of that, like lovely research and discovery work we've done we start to unpack so unpack all the data synthesise data from some interviews, from surveys from all of the work that we've done, and really start looking for patterns. And it's where I started to kind of develop a strategy based on those insights and patterns that I found. Yeah, so a is assembly. So the reason I picked the word assembly is that you know, messaging, similar to copywriting is not really learning it, it's not something that you just kind of sit down and write. Yeah, messaging is really like a jigsaw puzzle. And I think that, you know, it's you can put the pieces of the puzzle together. So that's the stage. So we start the discussing iterating, creating messages, brainstorming and really start putting together a brand messaging playbook, which is one of the outputs and the deliverables that I work on with clients. And then the last phase is our so that's review. Because within any part of marketing, it's never over. Right. So we review, we test to see what resonates. And really this is the phase where we kind of listen, learn, optimise, review the messaging, refine the messaging, again, in this space is really just kind of about validating and optimising whatever we've created to make sure that my clients get the biggest kind of ROI on the work that we do. Jason Knight 27:41 And then the output of that is some kind of strategy document or template or pack or something like that, that you share with your clients or like how does that then get turned into reality by them? Diane Wiredu 27:52 Yeah, exactly. So I mean, there's a couple of different outputs from the work that I do. One of them is really not tangible, because I think that the whole process in itself is already an output. You know, we're often working with founders CMOS marketing teams that one of the problems that they have is that we're not aligned, or that they don't have a clear vision. And part of the process is really getting everyone on board and bringing everyone's opinions together and kind of getting clarity. So usually that we've already kind of achieved that along the way. And then yeah, one of the the actual kind of, you know, useful output is what I call a brand messaging playbook or messaging playbook, where we kind of document everything that we've worked on. Throughout the time together. Again, it varies very much depending on the clients that I work with. But we have the kind of full scale document. And then we also have like the real kind of one page strategy doc that is kind of brief and short and snappy for you know, the founders that needed to absorb and get on with it. Jason Knight 28:56 Gotta have your TLDR ready for them to take on. And then they can read the other bits if they need to. Exactly. But aside from someone like you going in and doing that within which obviously in your case, would be someone exactly like you who else from within the organisation needs to get involved in this. I mean, you've talked about founders, and there's marketing teams as well. But I'm assuming that there are other stakeholders, other sort of cross functional groups that may or may not be involved in some or all of it. Which groups need to be there. Diane Wiredu 29:27 Yeah, so the first lesson that we've touched on and the absolute non negotiable for me, someone who should be involved in messaging work is the founder or the CEO. Yeah. Why is that because messaging is top down, right? It's not just this, you know, marketing, like a little sprinkle of marketing dust that we layer on. Messaging really affects everyone. And like I said, messaging is informed by the mission, the vision of company, all of that kind of core work. And part of the work that we do is also looking at the district Do narrative company as well, which is going to inform a lot of the work that we do. So the CEO or founder has to be involved in that if they don't want to be involved, then I don't generally work on that, because it's not going to be a project that's going to turn out well. Yeah. And then from then on, really, again, it can look different depending on the size of the company, but whoever is in charge of messaging and marketing, that can look very different, usually the CMO head of marketing, or usually need to work with the people who have the knowledge of customers and access to the customers. So whether that is a Head of Customer Success, or, you know, whoever that looks like, again, depending on the function, it could be growth, marketing, definitely product marketing, as well. Jason Knight 30:40 And what about the product management team there? Like? Is there anything that you need from the product management team? And again, not necessarily just you, but like, when you're doing this kind of messaging strategy work? Like, how can the product team help with this stuff? Aside from building a great product, obviously? Diane Wiredu 30:57 Yeah, it's a great question. I think I mean, one of the key, one of the key things, and, again, I'm weary you, I think you'll have a greater perspective of this than me, but I'm wary how, or I wouldn't say that of the division of labour and the division of responsibilities, I know, varies between companies. But the biggest support, I think, for any messaging project is going to be that feedback loop. I think that feedback loop between customers between product marketing, and then between messaging, because that's, it's really one of the foundational pieces of getting your messaging, right, is speaking to customers understanding what they're saying, feeding that back to product marketing, to creating this messaging, and then continuing that loop. So I think that's probably one of the most important elements. And then also just making sure that they're aware of everything that's going on. And if the customer research is happening somewhere else, that that's also getting fed back to products, because it's a two way street, right? So you know that, that feedback about what's great about the product needs to inform the messaging, and then the messaging, what we're testing and putting out there also needs to be fed back to the product team. Jason Knight 32:04 Makes sense. And that obviously supposes that the product team get access to this customer insight themselves in the first place, which isn't a given. But obviously, if it is, then we should all share, right, exactly. But what are some early warning signs then of messaging going wrong, like either, because you need to update it or because you never did it properly in the first place, like, ways that you can identify when you might need to run messaging exercise or a new, or like a refresh or something like that. Like, are there any kind of warning signs or signals that you can kind of use to identify that that's a problem? Diane Wiredu 32:37 Yeah, I think a couple of key warning signs we've probably touched on in terms of not getting messaging, that's not great. So I'll touch on those briefly. And then And then, you know, talk about something else, I think one of the things to watch out for is if prospects are confused. So again, that links back to what you mentioned before about too many messages. Prospects don't really get what you do, or maybe they're coming on to demo calls, thinking something else. So that, you know, there's clear confusion, and there's different ways to see this along the buying journey. That means definitely there is something wrong with the messaging, so confused, not getting what you do. And then the clear quantitive, you know, not hitting certain KPIs. Right. Yep. So you know, maybe you're not getting enough leads and signups through, then we know, okay, there's something going on with our messaging here. Obviously, that's the stage after that is the copy that messaging is a kind of overall strategy and might be worth going in. And really kind of looking at that. And I mean, I think the second thing to really watch out for and that's rather than something to watch out from, from the kind of customer side and the feedback is actually internally. And that is, are you going through some kind of shift, because if you are going through some kind of shift internally, there's definitely going to be a need to shift your messaging to reflect that so often, is that you, you know, let's say you've secured series a funding, right? So you gotta be pumping money into all aspects of the of the product and growing the team, etc. And, you know, often your messaging needs to catch up with that. Or it might be that you actually need to get everyone up to speed on we all speaking the same language, we're growing, a team is doubling in size, but then there's actually no cohesion between the teams. Perhaps it is that you are launching a new product or a new subsidiary product. So any of those any kind of big shift internally, and any kind of big launch is really a good opportunity to revisit your messaging. Jason Knight 34:31 Absolutely. Well, good advice to watch out for. But what's one thing aside from hiring you that a founder or head of marketing or someone that's responsible for this stuff, could or should do today, to check where they're at with their messaging and see if there is any work that I need to do or two, maybe even trying to prove it just a little bit without going through one of these processes? Is there any kind of snap advice that you could give anyone listening to this that's concerned about their messaging? Diane Wiredu 35:00 Hmm, oh, that's a great question. I mean, I don't, I'm not, this is not going to be an answer that everyone's gonna like, I don't think there is a super snappy way to go in and test your messaging simply because it's not, you know, just opinion basic does have to be informed by your customer. So I think that the quickest way to go and do that is message testing. So, actually to, you know, either to get a focus group yourself using different platforms like user testing, or there are other great tools like winter, getting a panel of your customers, and actually running messaging, testing, getting a group of people to feedback based on your value prop based on some key messaging, if they actually get what it is that you do, if it makes sense. And if it resonates with what they're looking for what they believe and think about your product. And that's just a really simple and easy way to get started. And if that throws up some doubts, then you know, you've got some some work to do, and it gives you a starting point of what to look for. Jason Knight 35:59 Oh, well, there you go. Let's make sure everyone does that. And sort of as like a messaging mot that they can do in a reference that will make sense to anyone that's not from the UK, but should probably do anyway. Give yourself a checkup, folks. And where can people find you after this? If they want to chat more about getting a messaging, write the power of words? Or maybe try and find out a bit what it's like to work with a T Rex skeleton? Diane Wiredu 36:23 Yeah, so you can find me at Lion words.com. That's my website, you can find a little bit more information about the work that I do a bit more about me and how you know, my process and how everything works. Or you can also find me on LinkedIn. So I hang out quite often way too often on LinkedIn, I think, you know, connect with me over there. Shoot me a DM and I'm always posting things related to messaging and copy marketing and strategy over there. So yeah, give me a follow. Jason Knight 36:51 There you go. The University of LinkedIn, we'll see. Right. Well, I'll make sure to link that all into the show notes. And hopefully, you'll get a few more people to read that. Well, that's been a fantastic chat. So obviously, really great. We had some time to share some words together. Obviously, we'll stay in touch. But yeah, that's for now. Thanks for taking the time. Diane Wiredu 37:08 Thanks for having me. Jason Knight 37:11 As always, thanks for listening. I hope you found the episode inspiring and insightful. If you did again, I can only encourage you to hop over to white knight in product.com. Check out some of my other fantastic guests, sign up to the mailing list or subscribe on your favourite podcast app and make sure you share your friends so you and they can never miss another episode again. I'll be back soon with another inspiring guest but as for now, thanks and good night.